Building Equity-Based Summers (BEBS) Podcast
In this monthly podcast we talk about topics that help library staff and communities build services that are equitable. Learn more about the project on our site: https://equitybasedsummers.org
Building Equity-Based Summers (BEBS) Podcast
Episode #9: Who Are We As an Organization?
In this episode we talk about the ways in which organizations, such as libraries, can and should think about their identity and how organizational culture and organizational systems work hand-in-hand and how each and both important when building equitable library services.
Building Equity-Based Summers is funded in part through the Institute of Museum and Library Services..
Hi everybody, welcome to the BEBS podcast for June 2024. And our theme this month is organizational culture. I'm Linda Braun and I'm here with Lakeisha Kimbrough and we are two of the equity and learning consultants who work with the building equity based summers team to work with libraries who are building equitable services. We have been talking about systems. Throughout all our work We've also been talking about organizational culture, but not as deeply, I don't think. And so when you say organizational culture that centers equity, I know what that means, but can you describe that a little bit? Is that a fair?
Speaker 2:question. Part of what it means is really exploring what is the culture of our organization. Who are we as an organization? What is our identity as an organization? And I think it means looking at it in layers. So, in general, if we're talking library in general, what's the what's the culture of libraries in general, maybe, but then of our branch, of our area, right, so what? What is that? What is our identity? What's our why, what's our purpose and really being able to understand those how's that show up in our mission, how does it and how does our mission and our vision translate into and really guide our decision making processes, our actions, how we respond to feedback, how how are all of those things happening and how is it manifested in words, actions, symbols, all the things that make up how we talk about culture. And so for an organizational culture to center equity, then we are saying I think potentially, we're saying how does an organization have, have an identity where equity is at the center, where we value equity? We value that we are all beloved members of beloved community, and what does? How do we then live out this identity of a place where everyone belongs?
Speaker 2:What does that mean? What does that mean? That mean, what does that mean to our community? What does that mean to us as a staff? What's it mean to be an organization with a culture of caring? How do we engage in righteous conflict? How do we engage in repair? So I think it means really asking what does equity mean to and for us in our community, and how are we living those things? What are we doing? That anchors us in that? Does our vision actually anchor us in that? Does our mission actually anchor us in that? If not, how do we reframe it and how do we come back to it so that we're basing decisions off of this? I think it also means asking us to think about things like how are our staff meetings designed to center equity and why is that necessary? What's that mean? Are our staff meetings designed to allow time for reflection, to allow time for growth, to what are the things that are needed to get us to that place?
Speaker 1:I think that a lot of organizational culture is focused on the theory of what the why is, the theory of what the vision is, the theory of what the policies are, the theory of what we think they will do as opposed to what they actually do. Yeah Right, so we're open mornings at 8am. That's before people go to work, so of course we're accessible and anyone can use the library. Really, really, is that really the right hour for the neighborhood you're in and people are on their way to work? They're not right.
Speaker 2:So we, examining the theory, like in theory, this works right, and it happens. We, we create things. We are like, oh, let's create. We have policies, we have procedures, they're written down on paper, it looks good. We start to implement them and they are not going the way we thought. And that is achieve what we thought Exactly. And that's actually a great invitation for us to pause and ask why. Why I'm with great wonder and curiosity. You know this, this, but this looked really good on paper. We spent hours and days and weeks and months designing it and we took all of the things into account, and it's still not manifesting the way we thought or hoped or wanted. And that's for so many reasons. Lots of reasons, lots of that that can be reasons. Lots of reasons, lots of that that can be. However, if we leave it there and just say, well, we tried, but did we really? Did we really try?
Speaker 2:because once we implemented it and it didn't get us what we thought, it would get us if we don't come back and start to examine that and examine how maybe we as individuals, how we as an organization maybe did or did not show up in relation to what we were hoping. This new policy procedure or time shift, whatever it was, how, like, maybe we were out of sync with those things, maybe we weren't actually in a place to be able to carry them out, to help get us to where we wanted it to be, because it's like it's all the humanness of it all.
Speaker 2:what we often do is then say that policy just didn't work, as if the policy wasn't designed by humans and then lived out by humans, right, and so it gets easy to say and and I? This happens, I think, with systems. Oh, but that's just how the system is. Humans created these systems. Yes, we inherited them. We also have agency to shift them.
Speaker 1:And also the other thing about shifting organizational culture and doing new things is because when I started reading about equity and organizational culture, a lot of it was about hiring practices right, and it was about okay, if we have more people of color on our staff, right, then that's a good, that's that is a good thing. Yet it seems to be like check right, it's not really about shifting culture. It's about numbers and presentation of human right, like it's about how people look and the number of Black people we have on staff. It's not necessarily doing anything else other than hiring people who look different.
Speaker 2:Sorry that's us. And if your culture, no but, and if your organizational culture is not designed in a way to retain those folks, you've done harm right, done much more harm, and that often doesn't get acknowledged. It's like well, we, we did, we hired them. They just couldn't take it or this just wasn't the fit for them.
Speaker 2:Right, and without pausing to say, how did the culture of the organization impact this? If you are consistently seeing turnover in a particular area or within a particular population, that is a key indicator that it is time for you to evaluate what is happening here, because it's not all these folks right, and we and we want to be able to be in a place where we can truly hear um. This is why this is not working for some folks, right. So, yeah, and I think I also think that some of that mindset shift means really exploring and interrogating how the organizational culture came to be. Is it like we need to be able to identify it, really have some open and honest conversations. What is the organizational culture? How did it come? How did it become this way? And maybe that has happened long before. Any of the folks who are currently in the space are there. Well then, how are we upholding this current culture, right, and is that the culture that we want to have um in in our space?
Speaker 2:I also think, though, it it means, when we talk about mindset. It means asking us to think about things a little differently, like what does productivity look like? What is our relationship and partnership with time? What's your topic Exactly. I think it asks us to rethink how we ask questions. When we ask questions, what you know, what's, what is asking these questions get us to? Are we asking the right people, the right questions? That does mean sometimes slowing down and really doing some evaluation, having a mindset where we're not always the experts, where we are acknowledging multiple ways of knowing and being, and I think it does mean if we are really thinking about an organizational culture that centers equity. It means how are we? How are we partnering with each other? How are we partnering with community? How are we partnering with our board? How are we partnering with community? How are we partnering with our board? What does partnership and relationship look like in these places? And it does ask us to do both simultaneously individual and collective work collective work.
Speaker 1:So what if the library and organizations studied each other's organizational culture. Right like I'm wondering. I don't even know what that would look like, but right like asking questions, going to an organization that is does have a really good equity center and foundation and talking to them about what's their culture like.
Speaker 2:And how did they get there? Because how do we learn from each other? Because I think what folks would hear is it wasn't easy, it was hard. We had some fun moments doing it. We also had challenging moments doing it. We really learned about ourselves and our organization and our community. This is how we grew. There were things that we had to let go of that that maybe for some were were easier to let go of than for others. There were things that we didn't have to let go of but we really had to reimagine. So they almost look very different, even though their roots are still, you know, kind of the same, and it would help people to define what a equity-based organizational culture is right.
Speaker 1:So then I just want to go back, because we've been as we do, we've been wandering around, yeah, I want to think about. So you and I started this conversation. I was on another project where I was tasked with finding some articles about systems, change right and change management related to systems, and everything I found just was not right. And so I started just like surfing around looking at databases, trying to figure out like what we're really getting at, and I realized and we've said this, but I want to go back to it is I realized that really what we're talking about when we're talking about systems and the mindsets and the policies and the staffing models and the community engagement and all of that requires a culture that supports that right. And so, until you have that culture, you can't change systems.
Speaker 1:Does that sound right to you?
Speaker 2:yeah, the culture makes the system absolutely right um and I think it it sounds absolutely right because until we begin to have those mindset shifts, um, that support the culture we want, that support the type of organization we want, the type of society we want, if we're doing that from the same mindset, the systems will be the same yeah we're going to keep giving it the same thing, exactly, yeah, and we're what.
Speaker 2:What will continue to happen is we'll continue to look for where there's bleeding and put a band-aid. We won't look to why is it? Why? Why does we keep seeing this bleeding? We won't look for the, the root cause, right. We'll just keep doing these things. And so, if we can do a couple of things, really look at how, how our systems as they current are currently designed and currently operating. How are they impacting us in ways that are hurtful, harmful, that we'd like to see change? Maybe they aren't quite hurtful, harmful yet, but they're not quite also what we would like for them to be. How do we as individuals in a collective, how are we impacted by those things? And how is our community impacted by those things? What shifts would we actually like to see? Yeah, and what does that take? That's part of the beginning of those organizational, cultural shifts. Yeah, who is it that we really want to be as an organization and what will it take for us to get there?
Speaker 1:How, if we perhaps shift that conversation on systems to culture, that systems live within right, Because the systems I think you probably already said that systems live within the culture. How do we think about what we're trying to achieve?
Speaker 2:And it's this interesting thing, right, because systems live within culture. They inform, then they inform one another.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly.
Speaker 2:So yeah, so it's the chicken and egg thing. It is, it really is. And I think sometimes that's where people maybe get stuck because it's well if we can't change our culture because the system is this, and if can't change the system, then our culture can't change and vice versa, and and I I offer to people that that's not true.
Speaker 2:I offer that we can look at where, because I think if we get stuck there, we get stuck in or perhaps begin to collude with powerlessness and no longer begin to see where we actually have agency, where we actually do have individual and collective power to start to chip away at things, to begin to make some shift. And it's hard because I think, as humans, we want to see an immediate change. We did not get to this place in two hours and two days. We will not shift it in two hours or two days. However, we can begin to be the catalyst for those shifts and we want to be able to pause and ask ourselves how do we begin to do this?
Speaker 2:How has, again, looking at systems, how have these systems impacted our culture? How has? And maybe that's even in some cases, going back to when we talk about libraries, going back to understanding how libraries even came to be in our nation, so understanding the historical roots of libraries, understanding how historically libraries have upheld patriarchy, have upheld racism, have upheld sexism, have upheld these things, and then how do we begin to unpack so many things? So we begin to say, well, these are the ways that we can have impacts on these systems Right.
Speaker 1:I feel like I have so much to learn. You know, I know about organizational culture, I know about systems, I know about equity. I feel like, finally, there's like a puzzle piece that is starting to form a little bit differently for me, or a few puzzle pieces, and I feel like part of it is and I encourage anyone listening to this podcast is to understand that this is something you may have to learn about. Right, it's not just like, oh, we're going to change our organizational culture and we're going to change our systems. You really have to learn about what that means and how to do it in a way that is equitable and that also is progressive.
Speaker 2:Right, linda, you said something that made me really think about the way we are taught to compartmentalize organizational culture here. Culture in general here, systems and structures here. Equity here, and when we do that and never the twain. That's why it's a puzzle pieces right.
Speaker 2:They all do connect, they all come together, and that's part of, though, the way the systems that systems of oppression work is to keep everything separate so that it's harder for us to see how things actually do intersect and influence and impact one another. Equity is not separate from culture, is not separate from, is not separate from right. And so when we can begin to see how systems influence literally everything that we do, when we can and you've heard me say this many times where are the connections? Where are the connections? Where are the through lines that begin to help us see a bigger picture and actually can begin to help us see?
Speaker 2:Oh, this helps me understand why decisions have historically been made this way, or why this community has historically not engaged. And then, why have we historically not engaged with this community? Is it because we're like, well, they don't engage with us, so we don't engage, right? Um, but we can begin to see those things. We can. Also, when we see the through lines and make the connections, we can begin to see how systems show up over time. Right, because it looks different, the way laws look, the way language is used, the way all of these different things show up to seek to keep prevailing systems in place that make it challenging for us to shift, if we're not able to see those through lines and make those connections, and I think something else that potentially can happen is we can then begin to decouple our worth and value from how these systems have created various impacts.
Speaker 1:Thank you, lakeisha. Thanks for listening everyone. Hope you'll tune in next month for our next Building Equity-Based Summers podcast.
