Building Equity-Based Summers (BEBS) Podcast
In this monthly podcast we talk about topics that help library staff and communities build services that are equitable. Learn more about the project on our site: https://equitybasedsummers.org
Building Equity-Based Summers (BEBS) Podcast
Episode #14: The Stories We Tell Part 1
In this episode with guests Dr. Nicole Cooke and Christine Bolivar, we talk about the stories that library staff and libraries as institutions tell about themselves and the work they do with and for community.
Building Equity-Based Summers is funded in part through the Institute of Museum and Library Services..
Hi everybody. I'm Linda Braun and I am one of the co-facilitators of the Building Equity-Based Summers Project and am so fortunate to be here today with a great group of people, including my colleague and co-facilitator in all things, beds Lakeisha, kimbrough, lakeisha, take us away.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone. My name is Lakeisha Kimbrough, the facilitators for the work and being one of the folks who is exploring how are we doing this work in meaningful ways, ways that are transformational, and that we're exploring some of that today through exploring a little bit about history and context and wonder and curiosity. And we have two amazing folks with us today and I'm going to ask Dr Nicole Cook to introduce herself, as well as Christine Bolivar. Dr Cook, Greetings.
Speaker 3:So happy to be here with you all. My name is Nicole Cook. I'm a professor and the Augusta Baker Endowed Chair at the University of South Carolina.
Speaker 4:Hello everyone. I'm Christine Bolivar and I work on a number of LSTA grant projects in various capacities, and I do work a lot with Linda and Lakeisha here, so I'm really happy to be here on this discussion.
Speaker 1:Lakeisha, can you get us started framing our conversation for this episode?
Speaker 2:Part of what we've noticed.
Speaker 2:The challenge is is that there's this idea, this sense, this feeling that the library is neutral, that the library is for everyone and it always has been like. That's just the thing it always has been, and we are just wonderful, beautiful, good people doing wonderful, beautiful, good work. And because the library is free and it's open to everyone, it's somehow removed from all systems of oppression and have not been impacted by those systems and has not upheld those systems right In various ways through policies, through segregation, through all kinds of things. And so, Linda and I start thinking a while back maybe we need a podcast to help people librarians, library staff begin to think about this, wrestle with it, grapple with it, reflect on it, to begin to acknowledge and accept that there is no such thing as neutrality in this space and in this work. And we know that that might challenge the idea of feeling good, it might challenge the saviorism for our white bodied siblings, it might challenge the idea of the good white person, Right, and for folks in general.
Speaker 2:Just, but I'm a good person because I do this, this work, and so you know what what that means, and that we at some level really believe, Linda and I that it's absolutely necessary to have these conversations and explore the history excuse me of libraries and the ways that libraries did not start off being for everyone and that there there have been many ways in which libraries have been part of those systems that have produced harm and have thus led to why some, some populations, some groups, are like nope, not, that's not the space for me, Right, Because there's been some generational harm that's been passed on and generational narrative around that harm. Engage with this, acknowledge this, if we're going to really authentically engage with our communities and really to unlearn, shift narratives, shift mindset, shift heart set and really more deeply and authentically engage.
Speaker 1:I think the thing I would add is that thinking about neutrality and history and libraries are for everyone is.
Speaker 1:Library staff have a narrative of a story they tell themselves about the public library that is not necessarily based in current reality, and so I think about that a lot, because I yeah, I just think about how I hear library staff talk about their public library and the community and I think, oh really, like, have you really looked at what's happening? So our work, I mean, is really so. Our work, I mean, is really we say that our work is about, um, uh, changing systems. Right, we're not. We do not talk about here's a program you can do, right, we talk about what's the system that is, um, allowing for the suppression or allowing for whatever. And I think that ties deeply into the story, into the idea of neutrality and into the fact that library staff do not know the history of their communities when it comes to libraries, race services, all of that kind of thing. And if we can at least help people to start to think about that and interrogate it, I think we have a chance to maybe make some change.
Speaker 4:Talking about history and policies like policies are very crucial to understanding and understanding your community's needs as well. You know, it was an eye awakening for me when I moved from California to Ohio and looking at the public library and being like, oh, we're doing this like historic day of the library. And then I pulled up the first library card application that the library had and which was developed in, you know, like the 1890s or something, and had work like requirements such as landowner I'm not even a landowner today. What does that mean to be a landowner? To be have access to libraries, um, you know, and knowing that libraries um are still um staffed by women, libraries have been opened before women can even vote um. So just really encompassing like a lot of those challenges and then really thinking from all of that to where we are today and how authentic art is the work that's really out there, that's being done. So I mean, I was just thinking about that.
Speaker 3:So this idea of neutrality. It amazes me that, you know, especially, I thought we had gotten rid of this idea that libraries are neutral and then, you know, during the pandemic, when I was doing so much more, so many more talks and interacting with people online, really figured out that that was not the case. And you know, I always point to the murder of George Floyd. It's a very pivotal time in this idea that we were supposed to be engaged in this great reckoning. And you know, everyone was reading all the anti-racism books and doing all these things and three, four years later we realized that they were doing nothing. You know, they may have read things. I'm starting to question whether people really read what they said they did, but they certainly were not acting. And I have librarians and library staff and library workers who are adamant. I mean just, you know, 10 toes down that libraries are neutral. And you know it comes down to this idea that it is, it's a cop out right, it's allowing them to not have the conversations that are needed. I think you know to absolutely what was said earlier. It plays into that narrative of you know who the profession thinks, that we really are and what we really do and that we're so good and you know we're immune to all of these other things, and it's it's really a privilege issue, and I think that's you know where folks get a little salty with me, because if you have the privilege to say that libraries are neutral, then that means you have the privilege of turning off conversations because some of these inequities, a lot of these inequities, don't impact you. And even if they don't impact you, who are you to not care about the inequities that are impacting others? And so it's a lot of this kind of one-sided you know I'm fine, so the profession is fine decided. You know I'm fine, so the profession is fine, and just just this, really this compartmentalization and really not being empathetic, not really essentially caring about anyone else around them, and I find that, you know, really problematic.
Speaker 3:You know, just a quick anecdote that came to mind as you all were speaking, I, when I was in my previous position and I was still teaching in person, and I was the only person of any color in this classroom and it was a library instruction course, right? So we're talking about education, outreach, different things, and I had a Black librarian zoom in and this Black librarian, who was an alum of the program I was teaching in at the time. She was teaching in the South side of Chicago, she was in a community college and she was dealing with mostly non-traditional students, folks of color, who were coming in at night to get their degrees. And you know they're doing a library instruction course, which we know these are not the most thrilling things that we can be part of. And she said you know, these folks have worked a full day, you know they put kids to bed, they've made dinner and now they're coming out, you know, to do something for themselves. So she said you know, my goal is not to make sure that they know how to use EBSCOhost to search for Shakespearean sonnets. She said my goal is to make sure that they've made a connection with me so that when they need me, they know they can come back. They need me, they know they can come back, right.
Speaker 3:And she's just giving these profound, you know things about really about humanizing her students and thinking about her community and thinking about what they need Right and their context, as opposed to. You know, this is what the library thinks you should be doing. And so she gave an example that she would use old school hip hop examples. Just, you know, just to make them laugh. And you know, search the database for the beef between Biggie and Tupac and you know, see what comes up. And so she's doing this really beautiful talk.
Speaker 3:And after you know she finishes and I say to the class oh, are there any questions? You know, this is really amazing. After you know she finishes and I say to the class oh, are there any questions? You know this is really amazing. And you know, what questions do you have for her? And it was crickets, right, there's not one person. And they're they. You know they look visibly uncomfortable. And finally I was like no, no, you, you really like, what are your questions? You have to have had some thoughts about, you know, what she was saying.
Speaker 3:And one of the students, who is a self-claimed feminist and, you know, is deeply involved in feminist pedagogy and all of these things, she raised her hand and she said well, I don't think anything. Any of what you said is professional. And once I kind of, you know, caught my breath, I said, oh no, what does that mean, you know? And what it came down to and I had to say it for her because she wouldn't admit it is that, using hip hop examples she thought was unprofessional and essentially unworthy of a library classroom. And you know, that was really disappointing to me and it kind of set me on this path about. You know, I got to do better as an instructor to figure out how to get these people out of their little bubbles, because she was so compartmentalized.
Speaker 3:It was stunning to me and I was like, how can you be a feminist, how can you be, you know, so invested in pedagogy? And this is your reaction, you know, to this woman's interactions with her community and her patrons. So, you know, and it's just like you know, being in the deep South, it's very interesting what people consider to be diversity, right, and I'm not even talking about why it's. You know that it's being outlawed, you know that could be another discussion for us, um, but you know, like, I've encountered people who are okay with black people but don't like Mexicans, um, who are okay with this group, who, but who despise the LGBTQ community. You know, and I'm still struggling with that, right, because you know, how do you?
Speaker 3:Just it's almost to me like teaching to the test, right, like I'm going to check this one box in this one area and I don't care about anything else, and that's just not what it is. So you know anything else? And that's just not what it is. So you know, to this earlier thought about, you know, this narrative, this narrative that we tell ourselves, is just so flawed and it's just so restrictive and it's almost like the antithesis to you know what we should be doing. So, like to Lakeisha and Linda, like how do we get across to these folks that you know it's like it's I can't remember who said it, I think many people have said it, but until all of us are free, none of us are free, right. So you can't just focus in on one quote, unquote, minoritized group and think, oh, I'm doing really good. No, you really aren't. So I didn't mean to monopolize, but just so many thoughts about this narrative, really this false narrative that we have to continue to break through.
Speaker 2:I don't think you monopolized. I was like, oh, this is all beautiful and I'm sitting here trying to keep some notes with some, some questions and things that, um, that I'm interested in. You know if other folks are interested in exploring, and some of those are how do we think this, this particular narrative, came to be? Um, because we know it's not based in in any historical fact. Right Like how, so where. Right like how, so where? How did we come to this narrative of? But it's free and and I often share linda um and and christine have heard me share with folks in seattle, a married woman couldn't have her own library card until the 70s. Right like that's with within our lifetime, like that's not even so. Just really asking people, I think, to explore where did this narrative come from and why am I so invested in upholding this narrative?
Speaker 3:You know what you're saying and we can certainly trace back the history, but the question that you asked about, why are people so invested in this narrative? Is power, right, and this idea that you know, when public libraries, in particular, first came to be, if you will, and you're talking about this, you know, legacy of the american dream, right? Um, and the purpose of the library was to assimilate, uh, new americans, if you will, right, and what does that mean? And why do they need to assimilate? Um, because you know, if we're holding up these western norms of whiteness, of christianity, of heterosexuality, of being fully abled, being Christian, all of these things, those are power dynamics and you know, that's, I think, part of how the profession has been socialized.
Speaker 3:And if we disrupt that, you know, as what you said earlier about I don't want to be uncomfortable and I refuse to give up my power. You know, whatever that power is Right, and you know, not even acknowledging the fact that we're probably one of the poorest paid professions in the business, so, but you know, the power is there. So I think that that's very much part of upholding that narrative.
Speaker 2:I appreciate that, because as soon as you said it, I went that's it right, and that's one of the things that we talk about is and that I don't know. Christine, linda, I'd love to hear your thoughts, but in our learning sessions that feels like one of the hardest things is the conversation and the exploration around sharing power sharing power with colleagues, sharing power with community.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think I've heard that a lot, or I've heard that through different ways of others have said it in their own words, and you know where it's um, it's kind of like a control thing and it's I know better. It's kind of continuous perpetual of the power holding, telling um community how to act and what they need.
Speaker 1:You know as you were all talking about power and power sharing, I thought of something I hadn't thought of before, which is, I think, if you talk to library staff not necessarily administrators they would say they have no power. Right, they think they are powerless and that whoever I don't know who the whoever is is telling them what they have to do and they have to live in a certain lane and they have no opportunity to share power where they and Lakeisha was yesterday, I think. But we were talking about this sense of a lack of empowerment or power and I'm wondering, like where does that? It's again a story we tell ourselves, right, it's? I'm just struck by these narratives. Library staff are constantly telling themselves like I have no power, I have to do it this way, that department does this, I can't do that, and that's not true. You have to like, take your power and actually share power, internally as well as externally.
Speaker 3:I just want to point out another level of the power dynamics, right. So, again, you know, we're in a very white, female oriented profession profession and we have a lot of white women, we have a lot of white men in administration, at the top of library systems and things, and it's still, you know, the anomaly to have a person of color, you know, at the top of a system. But when we're talking about the library workers, um, the proverbial front line, the folks that don't have the degree for whatever reason, those are the folks, those are the folks of color, right? So you have that same power dynamic between, uh, white folks and anyone else who is othered, right. And so when they say, when the frontline workers say we don't have any power, you know that's part of the societal structure, right? In addition to how the profession has been structured.
Speaker 3:So, again, I want to take us back inside the house and think about some of the library workers who want to do different things and the HR policies and the different organizational policies that then squash them, right? I have a lot of students that currently work in libraries and I'm in touch with a lot of alums and different folks and they'll say you know, it is within my job description to do X, y and Z, and I want to do X, y and Z. I want to have a community fridge put into the library because you know we have so many uh patrons experiencing homelessness or dealing with food insecurity. I actually have the money to have this community fridge, but the higher up administration is not interested in that and told me no, I can't do it, don't ask about it again. Right? So there is power, um, that should be within their reach, that they want to reach and that they are not able to. Right. So, on the same token that you know, how are they then enforcing different policies with the community members? How are different policies being enacted and enforced within the library and within that system? Right? So, if you have people with different priorities, unfortunately you know, we know that there are folks with ill intention in different parts of the organization, based on their position and based on you know, who gets paid more and who has more decision-making power, and blah, blah, blah, blah. They are squashing some of that power at the lower level.
Speaker 3:So, whether they decide that, you know enough, I'm not going to try anymore. You know, other people have come into systems that are just so oppressive. They don't know that there was power at one point, so you know. They don't know that there was power at one point, so you know. I try to remind people that. Number one, the call is often coming from inside the house and number two, that are part of that narrative that we tell ourselves in the profession really makes us hypocrites, right? So if we can't, if we can't get our own house in order, then we're never going to be in a position to make that um, espoused change, uh, in the community. So I agree that the power is there if it's allowed to be there um, I'm just wondering, like, how did we get to this place?
Speaker 1:right? I'm very curious about that because we had Christine and Keisha and I are also working on another project today and we had a conversation earlier about how and I think we've all said this at some point or another today is, like people think they're doing the right thing, right, they have the story where they. I think they believe in the narrative. They tell themselves right, like I'm here for my community, whether or not that's true, and I wonder, is it because Andrew Carnegie gave us libraries with not the best motives? Like, how did we end up in this place where, first of all, power is not the power dynamics and power sharing don't happen in the library or in the community? And then also from everything from neutrality to vocational law, like we're just not, we're very focused on internal and the library and each person and what they think, as opposed to the external and community. And I don't know what the answer is, but I'm just like I don't understand how we got here, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3:No, it makes perfect sense. You know, and I'm thinking, in addition to Carnegie, there was Dewey, right, and there's, you know, a whole host of folks who ostensibly shaped our profession and really, I think, established those initial barriers and parameters of what it looks like. And so when they set those parameters, you know, the segregation that we had in society was the segregation we had in libraries, was the segregation we had in library education, right. So the, you know, my position is named after Augusta Baker, and I'm thinking about her and Charlamagne Hill, rollins and all of these librarians that could only be educated at Hampton or some of the other programs that would actually deign to admit people of color, Right. And so we have the work of Cheryl Knott Malone, a Black, aspiring Black librarian received a letter from the University of Michigan in the 30s saying you know, you're not going to ruin our reputation and ruin our appearance, we don't accept Negroes. Right, they were in terms of, you know, maintaining the status quo right, and maintaining optics and maintaining the power right, and maintaining those Western norms. And so, you know, a lot of the work that I do is trying to unearth these stories, and I think you know a lot of these stories, really and that's what I work on is trying to uplift these stories, because when we figure out and we learn about the obstacles that people of color had in this profession, it's a wonder that any of us are in this profession at all today. Right, I did an article, I did some research about a group of students of color at the University of Illinois between 1970 and 1972.
Speaker 3:So this was after you know. Segregation was outlawed, if you will, so you could no longer segregate on paper, but we know what was still happening in practice, right, and the racist, misogynist, ridiculous things that the faculty said to these students. It was amazing, it was completely disheartening. It took me years to do this research because I had to keep putting it down of these barriers that still exist, and I mentioned earlier about the organizational norms. So, when you have those types of barriers, those shape that narrative that we keep coming back to, and whether it becomes implicit and, linda, you and I did work on implicit bias years ago, right, and these are the things that really shape that implicit bias, right, and we have literature from business and management and leadership that says people will hire or are more apt to hire people that look like them, they are more apt to have a better relationship with people that look like them.
Speaker 3:And I think that that's a lot of what we see and, again, that unwillingness, that compartmentalization, to acknowledge that history. We still have a lot of segregation, we still have a lot of these barriers and this is what people are afraid to name right. So I think it's, you know, it's very much this idea that libraries are a microcosm of our larger society and the inequities, the racism, the discrimination, all of the isms that happen in the world, you know, clearly trickle down into the profession. And again, I always say we don't have a critical mass in the profession of people like us, a critical mass of people of color in the profession to really sustainably and long term way of disrupting and really changing this narrative.
Speaker 1:That's a really good place for us to end and we will have a second episode on this topic next month. So thank you all for being both, all for being here, really happy to have you. It's been an amazing conversation.
