Building Equity-Based Summers (BEBS) Podcast
In this monthly podcast we talk about topics that help library staff and communities build services that are equitable. Learn more about the project on our site: https://equitybasedsummers.org
Building Equity-Based Summers (BEBS) Podcast
Episode #16: The Stories We Tell Part 2
In this episode we continue the conversation we started in November 2024 with Dr. Nicole Cooke, August Baker Chair at the University of South Carolina, College of Information and Communication and Christine Bolivar, library consultant. In this part of our discussion we focus on counter-narratives, library school student exposure to equity and equitable practices, and power.
In the episode you'll hear about:
Building Equity-Based Summers is funded in part through the Institute of Museum and Library Services..
Hi everybody. We're really happy to be here with you again. As a reminder, I'm Linda Braun and one of the co-hosts of this podcast and one of the people working on the Building Equity-Based Summers Project, and we're having the second continuation conversation with Dr Nicole Cook, christine Bolafar, lakeisha Kimbrough and myself about the stories we tell and the history of libraries and racism and even library schools and racism, and so Lakeisha and I have been talking a little bit more about that. And, lakeisha, what do you want to say to get us into this next episode?
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you, linda.
Speaker 2:I think some of the things that rise to the top for me from our conversations and in thinking about the conversations that we had with Dr Nicole Cook, this second episode really bridges some of that or continues some of that conversation around where some of those barriers and parameters lie, and as a great reminder for us that libraries, like everything else in society, are but microcosms of the larger systems in which we live, and so, therefore, there is no such thing as neutrality in any field, including the field of library staff and library work, including the field of library staff and library work.
Speaker 2:And so how have those narratives played out and how do they show up in because we are all swimming in these waters, right how have we all been impacted, which I think gives us this beautiful invitation and opportunity, as we listen to, maybe take in and pause and reflect on how have I been impacted and what was my experience in library school? It may have been fabulous and what was missing, what might have enriched it even more, how might I be enriched even more about learning about my community's history, with the library, with housing, with education, and how all of those things intersect and my own personal experiences and how that has caused me to show up and where I have personally maybe grown and where I've seen that. So I think those are some of the things that come up for me and where I see the continuation of this amazing conversation that we were able to have. Linda, what about you?
Speaker 1:Well, I'm really struck, as we've been listening to the first episode and thinking about the second episode. I'm really struck about this in this idea of history. So at the end of the second of the first episode we asked like where, how did we end up in this place? Right, and Dr Cook told, talked about the research she's been doing and the story she's unearthed. Right, because super interesting is how we were talking about the narratives and how a lot of Nicole's research is about the stories that the history of racism and oppression and libraries and how we got to where we are, and also tying that into, as you said, the education of library staff, of librarians, staff of librarians. And that's where we start.
Speaker 1:This second episode is the continuation, where Dr Cook is talking about what she is seeing in the world she inhabits in her research and in library school education and how faculty in library institutions, library schools, have an impact and how what she teaches is accepted or not, both by the students and by faculty, which is very interesting as well. So I think we will take it from there and enjoy this second episode on the stories that we tell ourselves about libraries and communities. Thanks for doing this intro with me, lakeisha.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 3:Enjoy this second half. So classes like mine, where I'm going to make them say what it is that they they said out loud, I'm going to make them define and I'm going to make them uncomfortable what it is that they said out loud, I'm going to make them define it, I'm going to make them uncomfortable and ask them why they said it. My classes are elective, right, so I've had the students avoid me. I've had students do the first week and then when I start talking about oppression and systemic racism and critical race theory, they drop the class right, so they can absolutely get out of a program and not have to address it at all. Right, Because I've had fellow faculty members. You know, when I say that we need to infuse these issues of social justice and equity and diversity and inclusion throughout the curriculum, they're like absolutely not. And they'll tell me diversity has no place in computer programming or natural language processing or whatever it is they're doing. I've had other people say oh well, that's Nicole's stuff, She'll do it, Right, but if they don't take my class then we're not going to have that discussion. Stuff. She'll do it, Right, but if they don't take my class then we're not going to have that discussion. So there, you know, LIS education is fundamentally flawed, but you know, again, I'm outnumbered as well in terms of what you know. The programs across the board look like Right.
Speaker 3:So that cycle continues, Right. So if I can't catch them or you know, some of my colleagues that I also know are doing this work if we can't catch them and you know, maybe we have a semester with them we use it's very rare that we'll have them more than once Then they're going out into the field. They're not, you know, interacting with their communities in the way that they should, because, again, part of that stereotypical narrative is about it's just within those four walls, right, they're not concerned with the people who are not coming into the library. They're not really adept and not really familiar with actually who's in their community. So these cycles just perpetuate, right, and so that's another systemic cycle that we have to be mindful of when we're talking about systemic racism and some of those other systems that really are tried and true, unfortunately.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I don't know. I think also, some of the things I'm thinking about just in listening and thinking are what are maybe questions that we can ask people, have them reflect on? Why might some members of our community not even not come in and what does that mean for what I need to learn, or unlearn and relearn?
Speaker 3:So, laquisha, a quick thought to what you were saying about the library workers, kind of realizing their power and thinking about what they can do, and then the earlier question of, or the related question of, how are policies enforced? So again, I want to take us back inside the house and think about some of the library workers who want to do different things and the HR policies and the different organizational policies that then squash them. Right? I have a lot of students that currently work in libraries and I'm in touch with a lot of alums and different folks and they'll say you know, it is within my job description to do X, y and Z, and I want to do X, y and Z. I want to have a community fridge put into the library because you know, we have so many patrons experiencing homelessness or dealing with food insecurity. I actually have the money to have this community fridge, but the higher up administration is not interested in that and told me no, I can't do it, don't ask about it again, right? So there is power that should be within their reach, that they want to reach and that they are not able to Right. So, on the same token that you know, how are they then enforcing different policies with the community members? How are different policies being enacted and enforced within the library and within that system? Right?
Speaker 3:So if you have people with different priorities, unfortunately, you know, we know that there are folks with ill intention in different parts of the organization, based on their position and based on, you know, who gets paid more and who has more decision-making power, and blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, they are squashing some of that power at the lower level. Um, so, whether they decide that, you know enough, I'm not going to try anymore. Um, you know, other people have come into systems that are just so oppressive. They don't know that there was power at one point. So you know, I try to remind people that, number one, the call is often coming from inside the house and number two, that are part of that narrative that we tell ourselves in the profession really makes us hypocrites, right? So if we can't, if we can't get our own house in order, then we're never going to be in a position to make that espoused change in the community. So I agree that the power is there if it's allowed to be there.
Speaker 2:And if folks are allowed to use it right and walk in it, mm, hmm.
Speaker 1:So In the history context. So, nicole, you just said something about you know, even if power used to be different, right, and now there is staff at certain levels might not have power. I'm just wondering, like, how did we get to this place, right? I'm very curious about that because we had Christine and Keisha and I are also working on another project today and we had a conversation earlier about how and I think we've all said this at some point or another today is like people think they're doing the right thing, right, they have the story where they, I think they believe in the narrative.
Speaker 1:They tell themselves right, like I'm here for my community, whether or not that's true, and I wonder, is it because Andrew Carnegie gave us libraries with not the best motives? Like, how did we end up in this place where, first of all, power is not the power dynamics and power sharing don't happen in the library or in the community? And then also from everything from neutrality to vocational awe, like we're just not, we're very focused on internal and the library and each person and what they think, as opposed to the external and community. And I don't know what the answer is, but I'm just like I don't understand how we got here, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3:No, it makes perfect sense. You know, and I'm thinking, in addition to Carnegie, there was Dewey Right. It's, you know, and I'm thinking, in addition to Carnegie, there was Dewey right, and there's, you know, a whole host of folks who ostensibly shaped our profession and really, I think, established those initial barriers and parameters of what it looks like. And so when they set those parameters, you know, the segregation that we had in society was the segregation we had in libraries, was the segregation we had in library education, right. So the, you know, my position is named after Augusta Baker, and I'm thinking about her and Charlamagne Hill, rollins and all of these librarians that could only be educated at Hampton or some of the other programs that would actually deign to admit people of color, right. And so we have the work of Cheryl Knott Malone. You know any number of articles that I teach, where I remember, in one example in particular, a Black, aspiring Black librarian received a letter from the University of Michigan in the 30s saying you're not going to ruin our reputation and ruin our appearance. We don't accept Negroes, right. So they were. When we talked a little bit earlier about being very blunt, being very honest. They were in terms of, you know, maintaining the status quo Right and maintaining optics and maintaining the power Right and maintaining those Western norms. And so you know, a lot of the work that I do is trying to unearth these stories. Lot of the work that I do is trying to unearth these stories, and I think you know a lot of these stories really, and that's what I work on is trying to uplift these stories, because when we figure out and we learn about the obstacles that people of color had in this profession, it's a wonder that any of us are in this profession at all today.
Speaker 3:Right, I did an article, I did some research about a group of students of color at the University of Illinois between 1970 and 1972. So this was, after you know, segregation was outlawed, if you will, so you could no longer segregate on paper, but we know what was still happening in practice, right, and the racist, misogynist, ridiculous things that the faculty said to these students. It was amazing, it was completely disheartening. It took me years to do this research because I had to keep putting it down, and so you see this type of these barriers that still exist, you know, and I mentioned earlier about, you know, kind of the organizational norms. So when you have those types of barriers those shape that narrative that we keep coming back to, right, and whether it becomes implicit and, linda, you and I did work on implicit bias years ago, right, and these are the things that really shape that implicit bias, right.
Speaker 3:And we have literature and you know, from business and management and leadership, that says people will hire, or more apt to hire, people that look like them, they are more apt to, you know, have a better relationship with people that look like them, they're more apt to, you know, have a better relationship with people that look like them.
Speaker 3:And I think that that's a lot of what we see and, again, that unwillingness, that compartmentalization, to acknowledge that history. We still have a lot of segregation, we still have a lot of these barriers and this is what people are afraid to name barriers and this is what people are afraid to name Right. So I think it's, you know, it's very much this idea that libraries are a microcosm of our larger society and the inequities, the racism, the discrimination, all of the isms that happen in the world, you know, clearly trickle down into the profession. And again, I always say we don't have a critical mass in the profession of people like us, a critical mass of people of color in the profession to really sustainably and long-term way of disrupting and really changing this narrative Counterstories. I think that that's a really powerful way to do that. We just have to have more people willing and able to enact those counterstories.
Speaker 2:The library, really is a microcosm of what has happened on a a bigger scale, on a national scale, and yet we, just in general, a generalized we, um because I know this is not, um, a blanket truce for everyone, but just a we as generalized we have still convinced ourselves somehow that the library was not touched by these things and that it's hard. We kind of have this fantasy, we've been taught this fantasy thing about the library being for everyone and it's for for all folks, and so, um, how could it then have come from the bowels of oppression and, um, be a microcosm of all that oppression or systems of oppression have done? And it's also, yes, a really great reminder of when we think about systems of oppression and power. Of course that would play out in libraries, um, in libraries, um, in all its forms, and all say you have to understand the history of the communities that you work with.
Speaker 2:Right, and we often will and I'll say this as someone who grew up in Seattle, in spaces particularly on the West Coast, especially in places like Washington, where I grew up and my of no, but we never had anything on the legal books, it wasn't du jour.
Speaker 2:So then it didn't happen, and so we don't have that history here. That's not the history that I need to look for or understand here. That only happened in the deep south, or it only happened right, or it's only happening now in places that are once again using legal means to try to push people and slow things, and so, when we're asking people to and for all that anyone considers holy, you're library workers. You have the ability to do this research right and look at resources that are deemed factual right. So it's not as if we don't have the tools and toys at our fingertips. What, then, might be the encouragement that we provide to help folks be brave enough to begin to explore these histories, and maybe their relationship to these histories, in a way that allows head, heart, mind shift to begin to create these counter narratives?
Speaker 4:So as we talk about these celebrated folk like Dewey and Carnegie, I mean to stop and pause and say these aren't the only folks out there. So who are we missing and why, and what are their stories? And I think we really focus only on the celebrated, like Christopher Columbus, lincoln you know how come we don't talk about John Quincy Adams, why isn't he on the bill? You know, just kind of the other non-celebrated people or like, why are we very selective on who is celebrated?
Speaker 4:It's not like there was only six people on this great, massive land and we're going to put three of them. So you know there was more than that. So, yeah, no, that just kind of made me think about the. You know, those who are celebrated and those stories that are highlighted versus um other great stories that are out there, and you know that we just don't really um stop the pause and like take time to really think about it. And as you think about that, I'm sure some things are going to come up to the reasons why the general public doesn't celebrate race, color, gender, um nationality, education, um thoughts, the their practices and all of that you know.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, no, I, just when you were talking, like that really made me think about, and then um, yeah, so Dr Cook, I saw you come off mute and I'm so excited to hear what you're, what you're gonna share and I I really am and and and I was like, oh, before, dr Cook, before you go, I want to hear maybe two, some thoughts from you, linda Christine, on as folks maybe embrace that, that challenge, or the invitation to really begin to explore, investigate, interrogate these things.
Speaker 2:We understand that, like you said in your research, you had to set it down, right, but you came back to it. So how do we, when we are, when we do see something that challenges us, that brings something up for us, turn to wonder and curiosity, turn to other things that allow us to? Maybe I do have to set it down to, maybe I do have to set it down, but I'm going to come back to it and I'm going to come back to it. And what does? What am I learning about myself in this process that I might then be able to use to learn about my colleagues and my community? So I'm going to stop there, but I was just wanted to get that in because maybe you have thoughts on that as well oh, absolutely, and I think, um, the wonder and curiosity are absolutely key and unfortunately, I think that we are missing that a lot.
Speaker 3:Um, a kind of um, simple example is you know, I think all of us used to be able to browse in the library and, you know, embrace that wonder and curiosity and that serendipity, and we don't have a lot of that now. I don't see how do I say I would like to see more wonder and curiosity in our aspiring library professionals. Like, I don't think it is the same as when I came through my program, but what I wanted to kind of get to is, you know, in some of this archival work, it has astounded me, the politics of memory, this idea of what collection is worthy, whose story is valuable, right. And so it was really kind of disturbing to really kind of figure out that a lot of this is purposeful, right. Whose stories are told, whose stories are highlighted. You know who the donors want highlighted, who's you know. So, for example, like I mentioned, I am the Augusta Baker chair.
Speaker 3:Augusta Baker was the legendary Black librarian and, for whatever reason, there's an endowed chair here at the University of South Carolina named for her and I'm blessed to be in that position and when I got here in 2019, her papers were in complete disarray. There weren't even finding aids. And I asked the folks in the special collections. I said how is it that you have not prioritized these papers? Right, and no disrespect to the collection on butterflies and whatever else it is you all are doing in here, but why wasn't she prioritized and digging up some of these stories of folks? You know, it's just personal preference, or I've encountered people who didn't want me to have access to collections because they thought they wanted to write the book. Now, they didn't know. They don't know if I want to write a book, right, but they don't want me to have access because they're very possessive over something. So there's lots of reasons why this information is erased, suppressed, you know, just doesn't see the light of day, right. So there's again. There's some house cleaning. You know that we have to do, but how that manifests is that if I'm not doing the research, if Linda's not doing the research, if my faculty colleagues aren't doing the research, no, the aspiring library professionals will not know this exists Right, and so they're not getting those counter stories. They'll have no idea that these other things exist Right.
Speaker 3:The other thing is Lakeisha, I think, to your question. I think part of the thing that keeps me excited is seeing myself in these stories and, you know, seeing the people upon whose shoulders I stand to be able to do this work. It is thrilling to me. It is, you know, I've been saying lately that this is my heart's work, you know, to share these stories, and I think part of the key is to get people excited in whatever that looks like, right. So if it's whatever that representation is maybe it's a white librarian but happened to do the same type of technical services work that this, you know, young researcher is doing right, and it's like we said earlier privilege comes in a lot of different ways and representation comes in a lot of different ways and I think it's that excitement and getting more context for the profession that will hopefully inspire people to do more learning, more research and tell more of those counter stories. But again, I think it's that critical mass. But again, with those barriers, it's hard to kind of get that mass because archival work and I'm not an archivist, I just I do archival work it's expensive, it's hard to do, you have to be on site, digitization and preservation is absurdly expensive, right. So it's easy for institutions not to prioritize it. So you know, that's kind of that self-perpetuating cycle as well.
Speaker 3:I was fortunate to have a fellowship with the Black Metropolis Research Consortium in Chicago this summer. They partner with um some of the diverse collections in institutions in and around the chicago metro area, and so there were two archives. I did some work at the chicago public library in the vivian harsh collection, um also at the disable museum for black, for Black Education and Culture. These were collections that were not open to me previously but I was able to make that connection through the consortium who made the connection to. Finally, after like 10 years, I was able to get into this one collection. The DeSable's archives are not open to the public because they don't have a full-time archivist right. So it's, you know it's one thing after another, but it is so worth it to, you know, spend that time and, you know, engage in that networking right, because this is a lot of networking.
Speaker 3:And politics, which I'll mention again, just astounds me because I think that's also part of that narrative. Oh, information is free. No, it's not. We are paying for it in one way or another right. And you know I was talking to some doctoral students earlier this week about information, poverty, right, and that whole theory about how we make decisions and go through our lives with a lack of information, that we may need Some of it, we don't know that we're missing, and other things like paywalls. You know this idea that you know libraries are for all, but maybe they're not. That's disenfranchising people from information. They need to be full, well-rounded, democratic citizens, which is what we say we want well-rounded democratic citizens, which is what we say we want. So, yeah, I mean, you know.
Speaker 3:So, to return to that, I think it's the excitement, it's the seeing yourself, it's the representation and just wanting to have that wonder and curiosity that I think will absolutely propel us forward. And when we have more stories like Augusta Baker, charlemagne Rollins, arturo Schomburg and all of these key figures and we start getting more context and counter stories, hopefully you know that will say to folks well, I didn't know that, how come I didn't know that. And I have people now say, why didn't I learn this in library school? Didn't know that. And I have people now say why didn't I learn this in library school? I didn't learn it either. I don't know.
Speaker 3:You know, to kind of have people say, well, or I should say, have people come to that realization that the current narrative is incomplete, right? So I think you know some people stop because they feel guilty. Or you know, you know some people stop because they feel guilty. Or you know, well, I didn't, I'm not responsible for what my ancestors did, and no, you're not right. And I think there are a lot of folks still stuck in that space. So maybe that's another conversation about how we move them out of that space.
Speaker 3:But, you know, giving people enough information that they have previously been removed from, I'll put it that way Maybe they don't know that there's another narrative, maybe they don't know that there's so many things that we need to add to the narrative, and I think that that's part of our job to make those narratives front and center. So people, finally, you know, come to say oh wait, there's so much more that we didn't know, and these were the problems that happened before that we need to address, right? And you know, organizational cultures have been or some organizational cultures have been rotten from the beginning of the profession, and this is how it was addressed, or this is how it wasn't addressed and then the problem continued. So, you know, I think there's so much we can learn From the history without taking this very didactic. You're wrong. You know this deficit approach and I think we need to take the the non-deficit approach and say these are the robust, robust stories and histories that can make us better are the robust stories and histories that can make us better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and this is an odd connection perhaps. As you were talking, I started to think and you can only do that by talking to other people right to learn about those other stories, and for me, that's like the most powerful thing I have in life is having relationships with people who actually help me understand something or I help them understand something, and I think that's the other thing that's missing in the profession is a acknowledgement of the value of relationships with people unlike ourselves. So even you might not see your story in someone else, but you will learn other people's stories that then you can work with, bring to your work whatever. And as you were talking, that really became clear to me, because one of the things we see people having very difficult time with is building relationships. There's people are slander.
Speaker 3:I don't know, go ahead, yeah, no, I was just gonna to co-sign on that and I still have. We still have lots of students who say, I mean, they fight me tooth and nail, they don't want to work in groups, I don't want to work with people. Well, what profession are you trying to go into? And you know. And then they'll say, well, I want to work in technical services. There are people back there too. Um, yeah, and just this.
Speaker 3:So that is, I think, still part of that narrative. You know that I, I read all day and I don't have to interact with people. Only the children's librarians do that. Um, so that's, that's part of that. Um, and I lost my other train of thought, but it'll come back to me. But just think, you know, that is still something that we very firmly have to combat with that. But the relationship building I just want to co-sign on that. I'll come back to my thought on that, but that's hard to get people to think about as well, and that takes a lot of, just like the work and cultural competence and cultural humility. This is ongoing work, right? This is things. These are things that we have to continuously work towards it, and it requires that inward reflection in order to do that, and I think it's the same for relationship building.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's through the relationships that we learn about each other and the world and all of that. And I think that is fearful for people Like. I think that kind of wonder and curiosity and to do that that would help break down barriers, change systems. All of that, leticia, you unmuted. Oh go, nicole. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Oh, sorry, I remembered To your point. We talk a lot about windows, mirrors and sliding glass doors in terms of children's literature, and I think that that should be for the whole of the profession. So, you know, talking to people seeing yourself through the mirrors or seeing yourself in the mirror, being able to see other people through the windows and then actually being able to kind of put yourself in their shoes through the sliding glass doors, and while that's so important for you know, the argument of the benefit of children, representative children's literature, I think to your point, this is how we need to address or how we need to think about the relationship building and the service to our communities. Sorry, Lakeisha, go ahead.
Speaker 2:No, please don't be sorry because that just landed in my heart in such a beautiful way. And Linda and I have used Windows Mirrors, sliding Glass Doors as an activity before and I think, as you were sharing that, I was thinking what if this is a way to help folks begin to engage in and with community and begin to uncover their own narratives? Because sometimes I wonder if we spend enough time in reflection on how did my narrative become my narrative? What has made that up? I can tell my story. What has impacted that story? What has impacted and what other? What are those whose other narratives have helped shape my narrative? And how has my narrative helping to shape the narrative of others?
Speaker 2:Um, and I think perhaps through um window mirror, sliding glass doors, we can do that in a way that perhaps feels um, does not feel as scary. Um, perhaps I don't know it might still as scary, perhaps I don't know it might still feel scary. And then I know I cannot remember the scholar's name who also began to add curtains to that. What might be behind the curtain that I'm not that might be Debbie.
Speaker 2:Reese.
Speaker 3:I think so, yeah, so, redeemed, redeemed Sims Bishop, and, I think, debbie.
Speaker 2:Reese extended it at it yes and you know, then, as you were both sharing and talking, I also was just thinking about the value narrative that we've been taught of good or bad. So if I that that is part of perhaps what makes it scary for me is, then I will discover I'm not a quote, unquote good person. And then what do I do with that? And so unlearning those things as well, so that I can then discover what it means to be in healthy and just relationship with myself, so I can do that with others and hold my humanities, so I can hold the humanity of others. And I just began to be a little curious about the role that those types of narratives that we've all been taught play, perhaps play into this.
Speaker 2:Well, that's bad history. Well, it's history and it's impacting us now. And what can we learn from that? Not to shy away from it because it was hurtful and harmful, because then we continue to perpetuate it if we don't. So, yeah, I just began to think about the way value assessment and signing has happened and the way we've been taught that, and perhaps what are the things to unlearn and relearn there and what remembering needs to happen about our innate worth, our innate value, our innate all those things right, that systems of oppression I've tried to smush out, that systems of oppression have tried to smush out. And if we can, as Dr Dillard says, remember with parentheses around the first R-E, because it's there, we just have to come back to it.
Speaker 1:I love that idea of remembering and coming back to something. It makes me think of iterating and assessing and the importance of really reflecting and pausing, which has come up more than once in this podcast. I want to thank the guests again Lakeisha, nicole and Christine for being here and being a part of this conversation. It's really been pretty amazing. Bye everybody.
