Building Equity-Based Summers (BEBS) Podcast
In this monthly podcast we talk about topics that help library staff and communities build services that are equitable. Learn more about the project on our site: https://equitybasedsummers.org
Building Equity-Based Summers (BEBS) Podcast
Episode #17: The Power of Language in Equitable Practices
In this episode, co-hosts LaKesha and Linda talk about the ways in which libraries connect with communities through language . This includes connecting through translation and interpretation as well as through staffing and programs and services. These ideas are discussed through the frame of language justice.
You can learn more about language justice on the University of Washington Language Justice Resources page.
Building Equity-Based Summers is funded in part through the Institute of Museum and Library Services..
I'll be right back, Harry. You say hi to Lakeisha if she gets here before I come you hello, hello, how are you? Fine, how are you?
Speaker 2:I am grateful for today. Like it was good. I'm glad I went in yesterday. It was really quiet. I had one meeting that was amazingly productive to deepen a partnership with Denise Louie.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I'm really excited about that, that's awesome. Oh, yeah, I'm really excited about that. That's awesome, super excited about. Because they now want to say, maybe it's a year or so, they have a location on 13th and Fur, across the street from Bailey Gatser. Oh, yeah, yeah, so it's technically Seattle Housing Authority land, but GIPTA, pda, which is part of Chinatown CID, the Chinatown International District area, their preservation organization, partnered with oh, I can't remember what their name is now, but it's one of the housing folks based in Capitol Hill to do some low-income housing, low-income family housing, yeah, low-income family housing. Um, yeah, and so that's at 13th and fir and um.
Speaker 2:Part of one of the like conditions was that they bring in um low-income preschool and child care, and so denise louis won the bid for that. One of our major donors gifted them like a million dollars to get the child care piece all built out. So, um, and their ed, she cracks me up. She, yeah, she's hilarious. Um, but yeah, we met yesterday. Our early learning manager had come to me and said, hey, there's this thing I want to do. I think denise lou, it'd be a great fit. Um, since we already do kind of some work with denise louie and she knows I've been looking to like let's take the partnership deeper and stop having these surface level. My whole team knows I'm like quit just saying we partner with everybody. We collaborate with a lot of people.
Speaker 2:We don't partner with a lot of people, it's not the same yeah, thankfully, I have a team now who is like oh, we see what you mean. We don't really partner with a lot of people. We have some surface level partnerships. We have a couple of really deep partnerships, but most of the people we say we are partnering with are actually just collaborating with and there's nothing wrong with that. It's a library thing, exactly yeah. And so I'm like no, I really would love to deepen this partnership with them.
Speaker 2:And so she came to me and said I really love to do this thing. It's a vetted curriculum. It comes out of Kennewick, it was built in response to community need. It's a ready for kindergarten program that's now nationwide. And, of course, when she was pitching it to me, I was like you don't have to go's right, right, that it has been like, because that doesn't really prove anything to me. The fact that it was born out of community and community has vetted it over many years, um says more to me than a university. Got to it and said yeah, this works Right, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:But so she came to me and it was like yeah, that's absolutely what the work you lead for our team needs. So we just kind of played around with our budget and we're like okay, how can we make this work? Oh, we're still 10,000 short. This partner, denise Louie, was like we can do that easy and it fits. So it was just this beautiful thing of their needs. We can meet our needs. They can like it was just this beautiful zipper, like it, just all connected Universalism.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah and so. So now, yeah, but if nothing else came out of yesterday besides it being super quiet, nobody talked to each other in the office yesterday outside of like hey, everybody did their own little thing. There were only six of us there. Everybody else either worked from home or took yesterday and today off. I actually got things purged. It was like this is beautiful, it's a good way to start 2025 and then I'm like, and I'm not there today, like I'm, I took today well, thank you for doing this.
Speaker 1:Oh no, this is yeah. Yeah, I really appreciate that so yay, glad you're doing well yeah, um, I've been working, but sort of like taking time in between, a few every few hours, like, oh, maybe I'll watch this thing for a little bit. Or nice, go take harry for a walk oops, I shouldn't have said that, um.
Speaker 1:But yeah, so it's, it's good, it's quiet, um, nice, so that's really good, I think yeah, yeah yay, yeah, um, there's something else I was gonna say in general, but it's gone, so it doesn't matter, I don't know, I don't know what it is. Whatever it was, if it was valuable, it will come back. So what do you think about this? For Amy, kentucky, yes. So, first of all, I found these videos today from some community school in Baltimore, maryland. Oh nice, they support immigrant youth and it's amazing. But and I was thinking, you know she's so into asset mapping, like that is her thing oh, I know, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, I wonder if there's a way for us to say to her you know you are so interested in asset mapping and you've really spent a lot of time learning about that. Could you spend money on on classes or well, many projects is, but I don't think she'll want to do it like could you spend money on many projects for staff and libraries to learn about the strengths in their communities, in their immigrant english language communities yeah and you can buy materials too, but we you might be able to expand it yeah, and it might like is it actually buying materials to support the staff learning right?
Speaker 2:right, yeah, you know, because there could be. I mean, I don't know what they would do, but it could be like maybe whatever they're doing, they need a license for, or right right, exactly.
Speaker 1:yeah, I want to take a class. I mean, I don't know why no one takes us up on pay a partner, right, like, pay someone to work with you. Like I told her that was something you don't have to have all the answers. I know right.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You don't, you really don't. And if somebody can like and how amazing, how beautiful is it when you can hey somebody in the Spanish speaking community to come in and say this is how to work with us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Did I ever tell you about the New Jersey Ready Now team? I think I probably did about their wanting their idea was the crisis of immigrants needing. Their idea was they needed materials in their language. Did I already tell you this?
Speaker 2:You told me that that's what they were doing, but not anything more. Yeah, right.
Speaker 1:So through Ready Now and us forcing them to talk to members of the community, they learned that, no, they all spoke English at all, but a large portion, and so what they needed was legal help on visas and all that kind of thing for staying in the country. We have learned that too.
Speaker 2:Like, and over many, many years, and actually for some of us, us, it was verification and validation, yeah, and for some people it was actually oh, um. But it makes me cringe often when people are like, oh no, they need the, the english skills, or the this or the that related to english language, and I'm like, more often than not, the, the community, the language community that you're speaking about, actually has strong, or strong enough, right, right, english language literacy? Yeah, right, exactly, um, yeah, the fact that they have chosen, rightfully so, to maintain their, however you call it, made as another tongue, whatever it is, does not mean that they are not proficient in english.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, and primarily what we know, at least what we know in the communities in English. Yeah, and primarily what we know, at least what we know in the communities surrounding SU is it's just that, and so we, for at least five years, now we'll get it figured out. It's really the school of law that, where they want to do things a very specific way.
Speaker 2:And we're like yeah, that's not how community needs this done, though, but it is. The families that we work with in the youth initiative are like we would love to have support with documentation, things, wills. They want to understand wills more the difference between like what is a trust, like those kinds of things, and really wanting to understand what they are, how to get support with them. Many of them would love to understand what they are, how to get support with them. Many of them would love to understand, like what, um, legal things for being sole proprietors or right, right, yeah, and like the business school.
Speaker 2:The business school is on it with us for those kinds of things, but the school of law is like oh well, we do clinics and we're like that's no, that's not what we're talking about yeah, so for like three or four years now, we're like no, we're not talking clinics.
Speaker 2:They have a new dean, so maybe we can move something forward there. But yeah, they're like well, no, this is how we've always done it. And we're like which is why you're not reaching the communities that you say you want to reach? Because you keep doing it how you've always done it and we're telling you right, there are other ways to do it and we're telling you exactly what the community is asking.
Speaker 1:We're like like not making this up well, and then, if you did want to buy stuff, you could buy stuff that helped learn about exactly, and so that's the library piece. So right, so instead of just putting the books in the languages, you could then say, oh, you know what, we need more materials on visas or wills, exactly, proprietorship or resources that help people learn about that yeah green cards like exactly, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think that and I'm gonna see you on the email, um, and I just have to take my time to think about how not to sound.
Speaker 2:Whatever I want to sound, that would sound like oh, not to sound like, are you freaking, effing kidding?
Speaker 1:me, and so they're building this whole collection. Did you notice that?
Speaker 2:they're building this whole collection.
Speaker 1:They're calling it. What are they calling it? They're calling it. Is it their lote thing?
Speaker 2:yeah which is uh what is it stand for?
Speaker 1:languages other than english, or something like that yeah, and so that in and of itself exactly to me, so I was thinking when I read that, linda.
Speaker 2:I was like this is that's not language justice, no, exactly.
Speaker 1:So that's what I think we should talk about today, because we just had that conversation via Slack about the Getting Started Guide, right, and I was thinking, oh, people probably know, well, I don't know much about language justice, right, but the way people are framing this work, we can't, we could not name the getting started guide but talk about some of the ideas in there, right, and then a collection. If you're purchasing materials, I mean, how do you like center English more than that, right, like other than?
Speaker 2:exactly, yeah, and I think one of the things that is one of the things that I often hear and that we often hear, um, or notice, is folks saying things like oh, we did a bilingual story time, or we had our programming and, and they still, in those things, english is still centered right, like it's. Well, we, we did it in English, but we, we had interpretation in.
Speaker 2:Spanish or Farsi or Tagalog or you know whatever the other primary language or languages are. Yeah, we also often see or hear that they'll only translate or interpret sorry into one language at a time and not do like multiple languages in the same space. So you know, you might start in English and then have interpreters in Spanish, amharic. You know Turguine and other languages. Something that my team and I, something that we're looking at, is what if you flip that and what if you center? So if spanish is the other primary language in the communities that you're working with, you start in spanish, right, and you interpret it in english yep, yep, yep, yeah, right, and that that concept in and of itself has been like for some people just mind blowing.
Speaker 2:They're like wait what? But will people English speakers come? What will happen to the English speakers? And it's like they'll have the experience that An English language learner or a non-English speaker has.
Speaker 1:And why are you not asking the question of Spanish speakers? What will happen to Spanish speakers if we start in English right Like?
Speaker 2:guess what.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's super interesting yeah it's super interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you're also making me think, lakeisha, that if a library has funds, if an institution has funds, because part of what I hear and it's true is that you work together to do that right, to build the whatever so that people can, so that you have translators, you have interpreters, and then you're working with the community and you're building that relationship and trust in the community when you do that around language, which is so central to who we are right, and I guarantee, if you are working with communities that are speaking, writing, reading, communicating in languages other than English as their primary language, there is an organization or someone in the community that you can go to to say how can we partner?
Speaker 2:We would really love to understand the community more so that we can support the community and learn how the community would like to be supported. Right, and so? Yes, I get it. I really understand that interpretation and translation services, rightfully so are not inexpensive services, and, again, rightfully so. And If we build true partnerships, transformational partnerships with organizations and businesses and members of community, there is often always some way of reciprocation, right, exactly, right, yeah, um, and the library has access strengths, etc.
Speaker 2:That those communities might want to take advantage of absolutely connections to maybe those services or those things that the maybe it's a community center in that area or a place of worship in that area. That is the kind of the central gathering place things like citizenship classes or learning more about healthy eating, or you know whatever it is.
Speaker 1:Right right.
Speaker 2:Maybe it's even learning about finances or college access. Libraries often have connections to those resources Exactly that they can bring in and support. So there are so many beautiful ways to be creative in thinking about how do we, in a transformational relationship, how do we reciprocate?
Speaker 1:because you're. This phrase struck me recently, um, when somebody was talking about language and purchasing materials in languages spoken in the community, and it was a culture of origin and I thought that is just like so one, what's the word? I want one aspect of someone's right the way to communicate who they are, so knowing someone.
Speaker 2:What if my culture of origin is the US? Right, exactly right. So what? What culture of origin? Because, yeah, I could be a native USer. Right, because I was born in the US. However, my family culture, my ethnicity right. I think often we forget the nuances. We think in terms of racialized Exactly and forget that race and ethnicity are not the same right, and it's so much deeper than where you're from.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, that's the thing, and I think it simplifies it. So that's the thing I'm thinking a lot about, because in the summer, library staff talk about translating materials, having materials in different languages, all of those kinds of things, and it's very simple, right. I mean, it's not simple to do whatever, but it's simplifying what you need to be thinking about, because, oh yeah, I have, you know, materials and Tagalog. That's it. I've served that population well, right.
Speaker 2:Well, and it's. There are a couple of things that that come to mind. One is what we gave out the flyers. We posted the flyers in other languages and people still didn't come which is one of the pitfalls of outreach. Right, outreach and engagement are different and that's a different conversation. Yes, I know it's another conversation. Um, yeah, outreach and engagement are not the same.
Speaker 1:Um, and now we can have engagement as part of outreach, but they're not right, not the same well, when library staff talk about outreach, they tend to mean I go to a place and I do the same thing that I do in my library, just somewhere else, or I am at a table and I tell people about what the library can do. That's not engaging, no, that is classic outreach too.
Speaker 2:It's not engagement. Now not to say that engagement can't happen in those things but, engagement is much more intentional. And it's transformation and it's transformational and outreach seems to be much more transactional and again, like we said, hold on to our conversation. I think that would be really kind of awesome to explore. I think right.
Speaker 2:So I and I think we already are lakisha, because we're recording, that's true, um so I'm already planning how to edit this, um, but so I was thinking too, though, lyndon, about the, the flyers and the translation of materials is do we even know that that's what the community wants or needs? So, and I'll give an example, um, of that we often try, we're very conscientious of this. We're like okay, we know that in the communities we're working with there are double-digit languages, right, like in addition to English, that are spoken in the homes of the families in this, in just a two square mile radius. Right, it's not even a super huge radius. And we were seeing and wondering some of the same things. We're like we're engaging with people, we're doing phone calls in their languages. We, in the languages they speak other than English, we're doing flyers, and and and right.
Speaker 2:And then it dawned on us. We're like and and right. And then it dawned on us. We're like is this even what community? We think we're doing this beautiful thing, right, what we heard when we actually paused to ask is some of, um, some of our folks who are speaking languages other than or in addition to english in the home, we're like, oh, just give it to us in English, it's fine, we appreciate the thought, we appreciate the care. Then we had other than language in addition to language speaking families. That said, we understand it in English just fine and we still prefer to read it in our own language.
Speaker 2:And so we now know that we and we respond accordingly and we do occasional check-ins.
Speaker 2:Is this still true for you and if not, let us know, but we have to ask and we have to be willing to hear that are. What we thought was being super helpful was they were just kind of laughing it off. They literally were like laughing at us. They were like, oh, that's really cute that you did that, thanks for thinking of us. But we actually don't really want that or need that. I think the other thing that we forget in translating materials is, just like in English, everyone is not, even if you're a native English speaker, not everyone is literate in English not everyone's literate in their home language and so folks are like but we translated it.
Speaker 2:A couple of things come to mind. Is it super wordy? You know like at what level, so we know even in English we need to when we're doing written materials. We need to think about simplifying sometimes. Or is this language at a? I think now what is? Is it fourth or sixth grade level, they say, to aim for?
Speaker 2:when you're doing like flyers and things like that, so is that true for the materials that you're translating into right? Also remembering, just be and and I have heard Linda, I have heard people say, but they speak their language and I just kind of go how many people are native English speakers? And still are not literate in English, of course they speak right if that's the language that they hear.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, communicating with at home and that's an interesting thing to me too is that the expectation of those who may speak a language other than English as their first language? I don't know if that's the right way to say it.
Speaker 1:English language learners. There's an expectation, sort of like we do with teenagers too, and this may not be a great connection, but the idea like oh well they should, they should know it right, like their own language. And we would never necessarily do that with those who are not English language learners and who we know. Kids and adults struggle with reading. Kids and adults struggle with speaking. So, why do we expect that of other populations?
Speaker 2:right, it's really fascinating sometimes it's really interesting, yeah, and I think you know when we talk about um, equity and justice work, we often think, oh, translation or and or interpretation, yeah, that is the justice for the language piece. Yeah, without thinking, yeah, about what, um, what language justice can actually do, like the language justice is also part of system shift and change right, oh, absolutely and it's thinking about, um decentering english as the default as the norm.
Speaker 2:It's remembering that language. Justice is remembering that people should have the right not to be discriminated against because they are not quote unquote proficient or fluent in English English that they would like to communicate in and be communicated with in their home language. Yeah, and so it's. You know all of the things that go when we talk about justice. It's now take that and filter it through a lens of language.
Speaker 1:Language, yeah, yeah, which this is. We've just started, you and I have just started talking about language justice, and it's a I've heard it before, but it's a new concept that I'd like thinking more about, and I bet it's the same for our listeners of the podcast too. A related question for you that you, just this conversation has just made me think about. So we're talking about translation of materials, we're talking about interpreting materials, interpreting programs, and then I'm wondering about because I think there's also this idea that's not a bad idea, but I sort of feel like libraries think if we have someone on staff who speaks Spanish, that's good. I mean, it is good, but that's like what we need. So if we have a Spanish speaking population, really we just need at least one person on staff who speaks that language, which is helpful, but it's not getting to justice. It's getting to again. It's simple, right?
Speaker 2:Am I making sense, making a lot of sense, and I think, like you've said, while that is a beautiful effort and I'm sure folks in community, when they come in and they are able to engage and interact with someone who speaks, whatever the language is, um, yeah, I'm sure it makes them feel seen and heard and comfortable. Right, like okay because, yes, right, exactly Because when and I had this experience a few years ago at a workshop where someone the workshop facilitator was saying hey, we're going to slow down because there are many people in this space who, um, for whom english is not their first language, and when that's the case, you're doing a lot of translating right in your head, and that's exactly, yeah, and so, um, and I think about that every time.
Speaker 2:Now I hear things in um, not fluent in french anymore, but if I hear french and I think about, oh, it did take me like a couple of seconds to translate that, even though I knew what it was right, right same for the like handful of spanish words I know, or the handful of Tricuena words that I know.
Speaker 2:So when somebody comes into the library or you're at an event in the community and there's someone who speaks the language that is primarily spoken in that community, I'm sure that for community members it's like right, it's a sigh of release. I can just speak and communicate without having the mental gymnastics of translating while I'm speaking. So not.
Speaker 2:So, in all of that saying yes, that is a wonderful thing to do and an option to have we also want to be mindful and aware of. Is this person being rightfully compensated for that? Yes, I was thinking that exact thing, right, because it that is. Even even if it is that person's first language, they don't mind. You know all the things that come up for people. It's still a labor, right? That is probably not part of their job description.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And are they being?
Speaker 1:adequately compensated. Well, they're relying on in a different way and maybe exactly a more difficult way. That's not the right phrase, but they're being relied on for a very specific thing that, if they're the only person, that's intense and does it.
Speaker 2:It takes some responsibility off of the only the English speakers who are not multilingual, right? Instead of me now needing to exercise patience and think about okay, so what if that person is on lunch, on break, not on shift that day? How would I engage, right? What would I? What would I do? What tools or toys would I employ? Would I take the opportunity and the time to slow down?
Speaker 2:Yeah, use pictures, use some translation service, you know, and I mean that. I mean something like. I mean, there are plenty of AI resources. There are translation you know Google Translate, which is not the best, we know that but there are other. You know online translation service, online translation service. So what if that person's not there, then? And so I think it's just like relying on um women to always be there, to have the, the perspective of someone in a, in a woman, in a female body, right, or always relying on the person of color, and I think it's very similar to, or it can be very similar in spaces where people will always rely on the Black person to deal with the young Black youth, because you get them or they pay attention to you better, you, whatever all the things are. Yeah, it takes some of the onus off of us to then step up and increase our learning and increase our skills um to be responsible for your community not just allow other people to do it.
Speaker 1:You're also as you're. As we're talking about this, I'm remembering a library that I used to work with, and I don't know if it ever came to fruition, but the library was very tied to the community and they had lots of true transformational partnerships, authentic transformational partnerships and the group of partners realized, you know what? We have a lot of Spanish speakers in this community and none of us speak Spanish. So their plan was to take a Spanish class together, right, which, for me, did two things. Yes, it helps you to speak to your community. That is awesome and you also learn more about the community. But, as partners, doing that together and learning the language together, which is for those in your community, like that makes. That makes my heart happy, right, because it has so many benefits and it starts with we need to be more cognizant of the people in our community, but then you build so much.
Speaker 2:I think I'm rambling, but yeah, yeah, yeah, there's and there's a, like you said, there's so much built in that and if and if we frame that not as we're doing it for the community right, because then that can get into that kind of savior or pity mindset.
Speaker 1:We're doing it for them. If we didn't do this for them, right we're doing it so we can serve the community more successfully. Exactly, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And think about when you have a team going through that learning experience together, the bonding and the learning together, the bonding and the learning.
Speaker 1:It's just it, it does something beautiful for that type of experience as well. So, lakisha, I want to pause for a second because this is also about I mean, we do a lot in bevs with shared language and sometimes people you know get a little defensive when we ask them to. When we talk about ways people speak about different things.
Speaker 1:And I just want to point out that I did say for the community and you said I didn't even hear that. I did say that and like and I think it's so important that you like you didn't hear it, but you took that idea And'm like oh yeah, that makes total sense. So when someone is maybe talking to you about the language you use and language justice, it's not something to take personally.
Speaker 1:It's something to take that you can learn from right, absolutely, and I think that's part of why people shy away from doing some of this building of equitable practices, because they're scared to say something that might. That might not fit language, justice might not right, justice might be a thing that is not the exact right thing to say, but we've got to start somewhere right and we know language, no matter which language language it is, is fluid and shifts.
Speaker 2:And so to not speak or attempt to speak or attempt to write, I'm telling you, I will try my hardest to say hello you into nguyenia and will say to them it might not sound right, right, but I'm gonna try and the attempt is appreciated, right. And then I they kind of laugh and they'll correct me, yeah, or say that was absolutely not it, right, and that's OK.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, especially if we're approaching it as a learner Right. We're not seeking perfection, and if someone says to me I'm currently reading a book that was published in 2020 and the author is using the term minority quite a bit, and it is, I have to keep cutting it down right.
Speaker 2:Because I'm just like how many people I know that the advanced copies I know you had like ARC readers right, like I know you had all the things and this went through so many people, even just based on what you wrote in the acknowledgements, dear author and still no one gave you other language.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, or, or it doesn't feel like someone gave you other language. Maybe someone did and it just that advice wasn't taken, I don't know. Yeah, um, but coming back to just that, and what you're saying is what, if someone does say you know what actually I prefer, or the folks that are around me prefer this language, or where we now use this terminology, it might sting because you might feel like, oh, I messed up, I said something wrong. And if we take it with just kind of grace, like, oh, now I know right. Exactly, when you know better, you do better, hopefully right. And we all are consistently learning, like and it's not just with language, it's with life in general we are learning new things. We're learning more about how the brain works, we're learning more about how life in general works and connections, and so, as we learn better or learn differently, we learn more, we do better, we do differently, we do more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's why we have to be learning with people in our community who are English language learners, who may speak another language in the home. You have to learn ramen with them and not just be like, oh well, this is what you need. And if you do that wrong, if you find out like, oh, we bought these materials and we didn't need them, it's like that's okay, you learn something from that, or we. You were talking before about how cute it was that you were translating things or putting it was like you learned from that that's we did and we were like, oh, and you know it, we could have.
Speaker 2:And we at some point were like, huh, okay, could it put those dollars towards something else? Now we know right, and what it did do. The community that told us oh, that that's cute that you did that, but we actually right. They also expressed appreciation that we even tried.
Speaker 2:They were even more grateful and appreciative when we actually asked is this what you need? Is this what you want? Is this what's most helpful? Um, so, they appreciated our attempt. Yeah, they appreciated it more when we gave them voice to say yeah, sure, if you want to keep doing that, but we don't really. Yeah, but it's, it's nice, we like, appreciate the attempt we noticed that you're attempting to work for us, with us, whatever, and they let us know like what that meant, how they interpreted that was.
Speaker 2:We were genuinely wanting to include them, for them to be part of, and we wanted to be part of their community. We wanted them to be part of the all of the things going on and we wanted to work with them like that's how they saw that attempt.
Speaker 2:Um and again, they were much. They were even the gratitude was extended when we asked for their voice. Is this what you need? I love or even want right like right from us, because it might not have been needed, but they may have still wanted it, yeah yeah, right, exactly.
Speaker 1:So, as we're thinking about libraries and their summer equitable programs, you can't, you should. This might be a little harsh, but you shouldn't make any decisions about language without talking to the people who speak the language you're focused on.
Speaker 2:I really think it's who speak the language you're focused on. I really think it's, yes. I think it's the same as us saying think about your programs or your services, and so when we're thinking and really understanding that why we are wanting language justice and why language justice is necessary.
Speaker 2:So not saying and maybe you already know this is something that's valuable and important in the community. How often are you following up? Right Right, like we? We heard this and we periodically will follow up and say is this still, is this what you want? Some layers to it if it's something just kind of advertising an event or something like that versus, um, something more meaningful not that an event's not meaningful but something you know more nuanced and right depends on.
Speaker 2:The play is happening, right. Um, because then that that shifted things, right. Some folks were like oh, then I really would like to see that written in my, my home or native language, or hear that in yeah, yeah, because then I don't have to do all of again, again the mental gymnastics of the translation in my mind.
Speaker 1:Which you shouldn't be doing.
Speaker 2:Some of our listeners are in library spaces where they've de-centered English in, like coming back to story time, because I know story time is a space where folks really will use multi-language supports, um, but I'd be really curious if anyone has tried starting off in whatever the the other primary languages are yeah yeah, and then interpreting into english and folks listening might notice that I am using interpretation and translating differently and it's because they are different?
Speaker 1:yeah, they are two different things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know where, and I think that also um feels nuanced for people, where people use them interchangeably and I know many of us do and have um and, just being cognizant, you know that they're and aware that they're not right translation yeah, is really related to written right.
Speaker 1:No piece interpretation is interpreting a story time.
Speaker 1:While it's right, it's that live language yeah so I want to have, before we finish this, our typical rambling conversation on the top. I want to talk about one other part of the language justice piece. That, I think, is where you and I started this conversation, not today, but earlier this week or last week and that's the way we talk about or write about communities that are, um, not, that are not, that are english language learners, right, communities that speak a different language in the home than english. Because you and I actually have seen some materials that are like oh, you know the way the communities are referred to, that whole idea of culture, origin, what did I say? It is Culture of origin or origin country, right, like it's not just the materials and the programs, it's also the way we interact and talk about different communities, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And so I think people have to start looking at the language they use in reports, right, absolutely, in lesson plans or facilitation materials, in all of the different kinds of things they might do, internally with the library staff or externally with community partners, partners. Because I think you have to start thinking about the way you're referring to and talking about those who speak language whose language at home is not English, and then also I think, oh, I just lost it. Wait, the way you talk about and write about, I can't remember it's gone. So that's. That's the other thing I just wanted to to think about is that, yes, we have to think about it with materials and programs and right errors. We also have to think about it just in the way we talk with others and write right.
Speaker 2:Am I making sense? Yeah, absolutely making a lot of sense, and it's making a lot of sense and it's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it comes back to this is it's one more way of actively engaging, or should be one more way of actively engaging, with our communities? Right, and just holding and honoring lived experience. Because, right, speaking a language other than, other than or in addition to English is simply part of lived experience for folks. Someone's life, exactly, and understanding like what, from the lens of either an English language learner or a multi-language speaker, right, right, yes, what, what does? And you and I kind of had this conversation before what's your experience? Right, like my, my lived experience is as a English, a native English speaker, for a variety of reasons, right, english speaker for a variety of reasons, right, and so I don't have the lens or lived experience of being a English language learner. The same way, Right, right, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Or a multi-language speaker, and I think that you know, it's really nice to be able to say just want to understand your perspective or your view on this, and when I think about multi-language speakers, or I want us to remember and hold sign language, whether that's American sign language or other sign language, because I think we also forget that American sign language is not the only sign language spoken Yep.
Speaker 1:Yep, so remembering that as well, other than English in the home, and when you talk about groups of members of community who are in those groups and I'm doing it right now you can end up othering right, and I think so. And we talked about how some materials we were looking at they seemed condescending and, as I think about it, they actually were othering right Like they, they they saviored us right, like well, me as a white, uh woman, and and privileged, they made me like more knowledgeable reading some things. It was like oh, I, you know, like I'm not necessarily more knowledgeable about this stuff than someone who speaks Spanish or Tagalog or whatever the language is in the home, and it just it actually gave me the creeps because I was thinking, oh, is this how like I talk sometimes, you know, because it just feels so, yeah, yeah, because it just feels so, yeah, yeah, and I think, as when you were just sharing that, linda, it reminded me to get multiple perspectives.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think what often happens is folks will say, oh, but we have someone from the fill in the blank community, right, do the translation for us or tell us what they thought they know. Community is a monolith, so get multiple perspectives, get multiple insights. It's almost just like saying, well, we asked the woman on the team. Exactly the woman on the team. Exactly, right, or exactly we asked we, we, we asked the two people of color on the team, right, um what?
Speaker 2:to do for the, the whole community, yeah, um, so, to get multiple perspectives and to also, I think, um, I've, I've seen this and heard this happen quite a bit. Folks will say, well, the Asian community or the Latin community.
Speaker 1:All of the Asians in New York City are exactly the same.
Speaker 2:No, right, so we just want to make sure that we slow down enough. Yeah, good point to be um more intentional and aware. Um, I think, yeah, some of this comes back to are we slowing down enough?
Speaker 2:yeah, and you and I have talked about this yes um yeah, and some folks who have listened to, uh, to our, um, various episodes, have heard us say are we slowing down, right, right, are we reflecting, right? Um? Because I think, had we not done some reflection, slowed down to do some reflection, we would have just kept translating all the things and need it to say maybe this is, is this just making us feel good so that we can say we're doing this, yeah, or is this actually what's wanted and needed?
Speaker 1:but we have to slow down and we have to hear, we actually have to hear, we have to listen right and I think I'm thinking like this conversation is sort of exciting in some ways because, yes, you may have translated materials and, yes, you may have provided programs where you have, um, a interpreter, you know, at the program. And if you now are like, oh wait, maybe we need to slow down and realize that we aren't doing the best as a public servant without you know, talking to people, that's really exciting, like I'm thinking, oh, how much fun would it be for libraries to really start to talk to people about language right, and to talk to people about what are the best things, what are the things they actually need or want that support them.
Speaker 1:They're a community member like anyone else right, absolutely the other thing is like community member, like anyone else, might be from Mexico, might be from Laos, might be from other places, but they are part of your community.
Speaker 2:And you need to think about that in terms of language as well as everything else. Yeah, and you know, as you were sharing throughout the time today, I keep thinking about and coming back to the. Don't take it personally right Like yeah, we in this podcast we're not saying don't translate.
Speaker 1:Right, yes.
Speaker 2:We're not saying don't use interpreters, absolutely, 100% not saying it's an important thing. It absolutely is not saying um, if that's where we are on the on the um scale and spectrum and you know place of support that that's a not okay thing or it's not worthy. It's absolutely valuable and absolutely helpful and we still want to be doing that in partnership with our communities and we still want to be making sure that the things that we are doing are actually being birthed from the community that community is saying to us oh, it was great that there was this song in my language.
Speaker 2:But actually, coming back to something earlier, like yes, that is wonderful, but guess You're probably already listening to music in my language at home. And it's nice to see other people appreciating that. What I really need support with is like how to understand my child's homework. Can someone help me understand that I don't need more?
Speaker 1:music. Right, sorry that sounded terrible, but I do not need more music. Right, right, sorry that sounded terrible, but I do not need more music. I need to help my child in school.
Speaker 2:Maybe you know the community is helping you put on an event and they say we want music there. That's beautiful.
Speaker 2:Also, they might be saying, yes, I, if I could understand these, what the my child's homework is in my language, I could help them with the homework, right, right because it's not like um so it could be that it could be, um, you know, maybe it's driving classes learning the, the driver's guide, in my, in my language, so that I can then take it in and comprehend it better. Um, so that when I go to take the written test, I I know what I'm doing right, like I processed it favorite library programs.
Speaker 1:This was almost 20 years ago was the library discovered that the Somali women in a community like not writ large, but like a group of Somali women in a specific neighborhood were really struggling with being able to access the school website and understand how to use all of the government-y kinds of things on the web, right?
Speaker 1:So the library was like, okay, we're going to get you class, we're going to give you classes, we're going to help you to do that, so then you can better support your child, your family, whatever. And then they gave them the computers that they used right and so right. So they they found out like, oh, they don't want to program on whatever music, or they don't want to program because whatever music, or they don't want to program because the other thing people do all the time is, well, we'll have something where we play the music of the um country, um, and then we'll also have food of the country. That's not what like right, like again, we're eating that food all the time, and so, but I need to learn how to use computers mostly so I can help my child in school, right.
Speaker 2:Yep, that was awesome To be able to have those computer classes in my native language.
Speaker 1:Yep, exactly Because it's not exactly what.
Speaker 2:I can't learn to use a computer, right. But if I have to translate while you're trying, to teach me the worst yeah, right then, um, it's gonna take me. It perhaps will take me longer to learn, versus just having a basic computer class in somali or roma.
Speaker 2:Yeah, portuguese, yeah, you know whatever that um Kiswahili, like whatever that is right and I just lost it because there, linda, that was such a great point. Oh, it reminded me of and you know this library systems work too, working with the community, when the community did not see a lot of representation in their language and books and they worked with the community to get um abc books right, alphabet books and it's probably the same work right board books and they work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, same library system, by the way so powerful?
Speaker 2:yeah, because it it like it didn't empower that community. That community already was, had power.
Speaker 2:What it did was really engage in power with right and helped folks in that community seeing like someone else sees the value right and is putting the resources there right, like we have the resource of our language, of artists, of that we don't have the financial resource to make this come to life on this type of scale, right, and so now we just come together and engage in power with and the other thing I loved about that project was that library.
Speaker 1:It was Somali families again struggled with finding materials for very young children because they were right there, right See, they did a few of them and so they were like, ok, and we know, they knew because they talked to the families really wanted early learner materials in somali. So they were like, okay, we're gonna do it ourselves, right, but not by themselves. They literally worked with the somali community who and the somali community was power with, they took the lead, the library mostly the library does right they could work to get the books published right.
Speaker 1:That was what the library could do. Yeah, I love this.
Speaker 2:I forgot all about that, lakisha yeah, I mean, and those are just some of the examples. Again, coming back to what's the community want and need, the community was saying we need early literacy materials in our language and we're having a hard time finding that right, yeah, I need to contact the person who did that.
Speaker 1:Um, all right, so I think we have my one question, lakeisha, before we do our intro and outro Do you think that we defined language justice? I know we did, but do you think we should do it specifically? Like you know, you talked about it. I don't know if we could say yeah. I don't know if we can say yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean overall and I think kind of succinctly, language justice really is about that inherent right for folks to be able to communicate in the language that they feel most comfortable in and to be communicated with that way, and for that to be respected and for folks to not be discriminated against because they are not fluent in, proficient in, whatever the native language of a place is and in the US that's English right and so to not be belittled, excluded, mocked because of an accent or you know wanting to, needing to, you know wanting to, needing to read, write, speak in the culture that when we lose language, we actually lose a significant way of being and expressing ourselves. And I believe this statistic still holds true, that we are losing at least one language every 14 days.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:And the loss of language really does mean a loss of a deep way of knowing ourselves and other members of our shared cultural heritage.
Speaker 1:It's being a part of a community. It really is.
Speaker 2:And there are ways of expressing things in languages that are lost when we don't honor and uphold that. So you know, it's the preservation, it's the systems change, it's all of the pieces and language justice is one component of equity and overall justice. That I think sometimes can get, can get lost, but and, and, and. I think it's a great reminder that it's a way of of sharing power and it's a way of dismantling current oppressive systems and helping to build and strengthen healthier ways of engaging and being.
Speaker 1:And you just made me think like this I don't know if it's an epiphany because I'm not sure it's like as major as it's seeming to me right now when libraries think about we need to translate, we need to interpret, we need to have materials in the language. I'm not sure when you were just talking about it. That's the why, right Like I don't know if I mean yes, having those materials, having the translation, having the interpretation, is very important for the communities and how I think library staff and communities and partners would actually start to think a little bit more deeply about what they're trying to do. It's not simple. It's not let's just buy stuff. No, there's something you're trying. You're wired much more than having books on the shelf?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and it is. It's. You know that translation, that interpretation, is definitely part of that. It's deeper, partly what we, what we just talked about in name. It's really, um, the, the honoring of language, the making sure all voices feel and know that they are empowered, um, it's all of those things and it really is a push against systems of oppression and injustice. I mean, for so long we talked about assimilation and we talk about and, truthfully, it's one of the things that when we talk about what have folks given up a lot of things. Language was asked and required to be given up in order to receive certain privileges, or you know whatnot, whatnot and you think about uh, and this might not make it into the podcast, which is fine, but it's one of those we think about kind of the culture of whiteness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, um, it did ask and required the giving up of german, polish, italian, um gaelic, right, all of it no um scottish, all of the languages that folks were speaking when they came as indentured servants or, um you know, immigrated to the US and people hold that up as that's awesome.
Speaker 1:Look what they did they were able to assimilate and learn English, and that was great and so then it means a part of who we are has been lost.
Speaker 2:And so what does reclamation look like?
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, my gosh All right. So thank you, Lakeisha. This conversation was. I know we're like talking for our listeners and the. You know we really want to think about building equitable summer services and help others think about that. This was really, since I have mentioned, this was something that I'm just starting to learn about language justice. This was so helpful to me and interesting, so thank you, Lakeisha, for helping me to learn about this and think about this, thank you, and thank you for engaging in conversation.
Speaker 2:I love our conversations and I love that they do offer us and hopefully, hopefully all of you amazing beloved listeners an opportunity to think more, more deeply about things and slow down and do some, but just reflection and support all of our growth as we're really thinking about what does this journey of equity look like and hold for all of us? Because in those conversations and listening to the community say, oh, that was really cute. Right, there's learning, that happens. And there's connecting right, that happens.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah there in some really powerful and transformative ways. So exciting.
Speaker 1:Thank you all for listening. Bye everybody. Um, okay, now we have to introduce ourselves. We'll do our thing, and so if I start and then I'll introduce you and then you can introduce the topic, we'll do our normal thing, all right? Hi everybody, welcome to our Building Equity-Based Summers podcast. I'm Linda Braun, one of the co-hosts and one of the team who works on the Institute of Museum and Library Services funded equity-based summers project, and I'm here with Lakeisha Kimbrough. Lakeisha, say hello.
Speaker 2:Hello, hi Linda, hi everyone. My name is Lakeisha Kimbrough and I have the immense honor of working alongside Linda and a ton of amazing other folks working on the Building Equity-Based Summers project of exploring justice through the lens of language. So, exploring language justice, what does it mean? What does it not mean? How can we be intentional when we are thinking about justice and language? So, hopefully, as we learn something today, hopefully you find this engaging and learn something today as well.
Speaker 1:That was awesome. That, like it may be my favorite podcast so far, just because I found that conversation typically all over.
